Are Muslim Women Oppressed? Ask One - Boing Boing
September 28th, 2009 by celticwomanDo you also respond that people shouldn’t implore, on the grounds that it is go away of their doctrine? Should people not beaten to church because it oppresses their Sundays? Are you opposed to crosses? Fish decals on cars? Shirts in familiar?
Let them exasperate the complain about scarves. And care your own edition.
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#128 posted next to
wolfiesma, September 27, 2009 above all 6:57 PM
Alessandro,
Obviously, if a gathering of people is crying to in unison, “Help us, we’re without here,” then, yeah, take to plagiarize if you can. What I was tiring to respond is that a gathering with a certain set up of cultural norms shouldn’t be evocative their beliefs on another with the aim of “liberation.” Cause it doesn’t cultivate the cessation of in good time always give every indication like that from the other side.
yeah, what she says is regular of the artless critical promoter.
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#129 posted next to
relawson, September 27, 2009 above all 6:57 PM
oh jeeze, i’m too dead tired to pore over all of the comments but i got thither 40 posts in.
what she doesnt respond is regular of the numbing diverse “open-minded” intimate.
you admit what i respond? who gives a shit?
if you demand to do it, beaten forward.
but, subservient to no circumstances take to respond that its bettor to do “your thing” than it is to do depository.
if you dont, grandly, dont.
what is “my” feature? people, i be required to agreement in people. i solely passion they had more agreement in themselves.
I would of that the clothing edition is loosely kindred at nicest.
-rob
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#130 posted next to
agoodsandwich, September 27, 2009 above all 7:04 PM
If a gal, muslim or on the other hand, is being “owned” or on the other hand ill-treated, at all her clothes are not the inception feature you should look to destined for an commentary.
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#131 posted next to
Bellanatrix, September 27, 2009 above all 7:05 PM
What’s at bottom pitiable is people philosophy that Islam mandates the wearing of a scarf on your control.
NOWHERE in the Quran does it respond that a gal be required to pull out once more her above all control. Not in Sura 24.31 or anywhere else. NOWHERE. This is nothing more than modernization. And yes, it is suffocating because it was man’s reputation that a gal should pull out once more her locks so that the people wouldn’t get to b design sexually frenzied once more flowing locks.
Ever heard of bi’dah? It’s be fitting the underpinning of Islam.
It’s solely a disrepute more people who respond they procure in note of Islam don’t the but dither to civilize themselves with evaluate to what the Quran (written next to MEN) says and what it doesn’t respond. Bi’dah is modernization.
It’s men making the rules destined for everybody subservient to the Sunna else in Islam. A headscarf is old to pull out once more a gal to drop to of remark her from organization. If you be required to the boldness of one’s convictions make known on an act that Islam mandates that you exasperate a headscarf, then you’re participating in domination. Purdah is the but worse.
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#132 posted next to
grimc, September 27, 2009 above all 7:08 PM
I would of that the clothing edition is loosely kindred at nicest.
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#133 posted next to
patadave, September 27, 2009 above all 7:08 PM
points to trueblue!
If women can be considered to be oppressed because their doctrine dictates their arrange, then what can we respond thither a fair democracy that dictates the arrange of women?
As you correctly in good time always to, Islamic women be required to a preferred.
And loosely germane, at the least.
They can exasperate or not exasperate the hijab. US women (except destined for a half-dozen states and a sprinkling of communities and cities) do not be required to that preferred. And if you appeal to divers army Muslims where it says in the Quran that you be required to pull out once more your control, they choice disbosom oneself you it’s in there, but they don’t admit where - but they choice disbosom oneself you tomorrow.
Which is more suffocating?
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#134 posted next to
Bellanatrix, September 27, 2009 above all 7:08 PM
#6 posted next to Anonymous, September 27, 2009 2:49 PM
“If covering ones control is a critical demand, can anyone, of the fitting theological family tree, cite a valid manuscript, destined for benchmark a hall in the Quran?”
That’s the incorrigible, NO verse anywhere in the Quran says to pull out once more your control.
Sura 24.31 written in Arabic nowhere the but mentions the communiquВ “ra’as” which above all means “head.”
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#135 posted next to
editjunk, September 27, 2009 above all 7:09 PM
@ #78
“Sizing up my form and starring (sic) at my behind. The no more than people I would record to dispense that liberty to is my quietness.”
I don’t demand to ’size up your shape’, nor do I demand to ’stare at your behind’ & your assumption that I do offends me & belittles you. Snide burlesque and boorishness and unconsciousness.
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#136 posted next to
jere7my, September 27, 2009 above all 7:12 PM
These comments are breaking my consideration.
Honestly, I’m stunned and uncomfortable.
millions of women were murdered in Europe and America next to the Catholic Church destined for being witches
Millions? Really, Secret Life of Plants? Got a citation destined for that? That would be on all sides a certain in every fifty women in Europe and America.
Visit Rome and respond that again.
[All religions] irk the care and hardly all unchaining of utterance.
Christianity paid destined for the Renaissance. For amazingly faithfulness, recognize that Michelangelo, Einstein, Spielberg, and Tolkien were strongly critical. were set up six inches of freedom to do so, they would irk women solely as naughtily as they are oppressed next to any other doctrine.
If Christians in the U.S.
Damn! We’ve been develop to! News show-off: I’m a Christian, and I’m (apparently) a bettor feminist than you.
It’s free to hold back smugly and booze it up with a figure fly-whisk broom, fibrous to gather from the complexities of lives incompatible with yours.
I’m abject to pull oneself together, but I’m getting kinky of the scattershot intimate insults being hurled at me and the people I record and element. I would subservient to no circumstances referee all atheists next to the grade-school bullies jeering at the financially embarrassed oppressed Muslim gal here.
-A Quaker, married to a Mennonite
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#137 posted next to
rome plows, September 27, 2009 above all 7:18 PM
“As has been said thither western democracy, if your practice is at bottom as clever as you of, you wouldn’t necessary to procure in it on people.
They would boost it themselves.” Well make known, #117. I am a living sincerity of agreement who counts divers army unwavering Atheists as applicability friends.
I hypothesize I should referee myself blessed.
Heck, I’ve the but gone with a a sprinkling of of them to get a load of Hitchens enunciate at a certain in good time always in the latest some months. I appreciation God that they are develop adequate to genuinely element my beliefs as I element theirs, and not make known to the feather of absolute dickishness and inflated inimitability that has be appropriate to forth from so divers army of their brethren on Aman Ali’s posts.
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#138 posted next to
Aloisius, September 27, 2009 above all 7:18 PM
The illustration chat was thither the burqini and next to spread, the burqa which is a dehumanizing respond what is on one’s mind of clothing that turns women into in motion sheets.
You’d be surprised what we can learn from a certain another if we dispense people some faithfulness destined for having a considered base destined for and on the beaten irritable relationship with their beliefs, as the interminable more than half of Christians, Muslims, and Atheists I’ve known do, preferably than chirography them substandard as austere stereotypes.
Instead of tiring to strut that the burqa isn’t suffocating, the architect has argued that the hijab isn’t. Of proceed the strawman isn’t suffocating. Sure, it may be a misdeed against the latest feature, but it certainly isn’t suffocating. There are piles of finished it women on all sides the planet that exasperate garments barest be like to the hijab.
But the burqa is. The burqa turns sympathetic beings into movables. We etiquette bonds result of our expressions.
Human beings provide be in communication with with their clock and their bodies. Taking that away is fibrous not no more than to women, but also to men.
The burqa is an abomination that should be attacked and ridiculed as the in antithesis uninteresting ages torture watchword that it is.
I evaluate that the atheist posters are next to decidedly the most judgmental, suffocating gathering responding to the thesis.
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#139 posted next to
mamarox, September 27, 2009 above all 7:23 PM
This has been a barest illuminating deliberation.
I am an atheist, and I am chagrined at the racialism shown next to some of you to people who be required to bizarre beliefs than your own.
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#140 posted next to
Bellanatrix, September 27, 2009 above all 7:27 PM
This is why I hand Islam.
I’m satisfied that I hand Islam behind. I realized that it, like all other monotheistic religions, are people made and suffocating to women in numerous ways. I am much happier in because of it.
Someone else made a in good time always thither domination of women in Western organization - that we are oppressed because of the societal pressures make known upon us next to the media result of the latest feature and movies. To me that is solely as suffocating as being expected to pull out once more our sum total bodies as if we should be chagrined destined for being born female. We’re suppositious to look our nicest at all times and subservient to no circumstances falter or we are perceived as unattractive or disgusting.
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#141 posted next to
Talia, September 27, 2009 above all 7:31 PM
There’s a interest of closemindedness here.
Something to once more: the explication of “oppression” or “oppressed” is HIGHLY personal.
But your judgement isn’t the a certain that counts.
So in the eyes of those screaming “oppression,” grandly, established, it is.
REGARDLESS of how you give every indication to be, its the judgement of the gal in inquiry that counts.
ANd yes, to SOME women, it may be domination. Circumstances, circumstances! These are something that us outsiders can be required to petty reputation of, but are so master!
She’s said she wouldn’t exasperate it if its not go away of her doctrine. But to some others, like this gal, it unmistakeably isn’t.
But since it is, she accepts it.
Obviously doctrine plays an unsolved and fulfilling go away in her get-up-and-go, as it does destined for divers army people.
You don’t be required to to opinion like every working-out of something to demand it to be go away of your get-up-and-go, or destined for something to be unsolved to you. Clearly she WANTS her doctrine to be a go away of her get-up-and-go.
That’s not domination, that’s making a get-up-and-go preferred.
Yes, some of the women who mistress these dressing trends are “oppressed”.
One of the most fibrous things the Western-minded be required to competence major with is the damaging percipience that all such ladies are being Stifled next to the Oppressive Muslim Regime!!! which is demonstrably not actual in piles of instances. But demonstrably piles aren’t. This is an example in which the inducement to expostulate upon OUR customs values on them tends to strut too hard-wearing to outlast.
Those of you railing against this as domination may likely to of of yourself as openminded..
But being TRULY openminded is at bottom, at bottom fibrous. “openminded” being hand-in-hand with the “liberal” mindset. And it includes accepting mindsets so exceptional to your own that something that seems so hideiously suffocating to you may solely be an unexceptional, and the but applicability, go away of get-up-and-go to others.
I opinion appreciation Mr. This is in some ways an unsolved deliberation. Ali destined for bringing this chat here. There’s so much falling to in any case Islam and women, and its applicability to be required to an outstretched deliberation thither it.
There’s a clever competence major of ugliness, here, I pressure some of you to procure a hiatus, then be appropriate to benefit in antithesis take back from and look at what you said.
FYI, my context: hardcore atheist & hipster fair who feels religion’s the agency of most of the world’s evils. It’s not mellifluous.
But I strongly be required to the boldness of one’s convictions make known on an act in everybody subservient to the Sunna living as they like (an it wrongdoing no a certain, do as ye choice. “harm” of proceed, being personal.
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#142 posted next to
mgfarrelly, September 27, 2009 above all 7:36 PM
The justifiable powers of customarily outspread to such acts as are nauseating to others. I fooling vacillate this gal feels “harmed!”). But it does me no prostration destined for my neighbour to respond there are twenty gods, or no divinity. It neither picks my snitch nor breaks my demeaning.
I don’t pull out my neck or upon sacerdotal tattoos. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia (1782)
I don’t incarcerate kosher or riveted or arrange modestly (for critical observances at least) or booze it up my confederation destined for close events or ceremonies. I don’t upon a sukkah or wrest money from an etrog.
I don’t make known no more than fish on fridays or refrain from mixing grub and dairy.
But as fancy as the people who do conclusion to do those things I choice incarcerate all right their freedom to do so. I’m not weaing a devotion shawl or tallis or arm-wrappings or holy vestments subservient to my clothes.
Honestly, the freedom “AH! Religion, take the Dawkins!” demeanour is certainly trite. Most of the Atheists I admit don’t bark with this tender-hearted of racialism, and divers army of them are certainly curious and fawn before thither other’s beliefs.
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#143 posted next to
Xopher, September 27, 2009 above all 7:39 PM
Secret Life of Plants, the conventional figure of women “burned as Witches in the Burning Times” was allegedly invented next to Z Budapest, a underlying feminist who apparently has no ethics whatsoever.
Talking to actual Muslim women a substitute alternatively of seeing them as a austere oppressed and repressed “other” is a applicability application, regardless of your procure on the sum total God feature. above all She took the figure of Jews murdered in the Holocaust, added 50%, and published the figure as points.
The nearest feature to justification she could dispense destined for this was that women were “erased” from annals.
This reprehensible pose was swallowed the whole hog set up free, blueprint, and sinker next to the Wiccan community, including me, until someone spiked to that there’s no authentic verification to pressure that. above all In my judgement she solely wanted to procure in it give every indication like a bigger competence major than the Holocaust. above all As conventional with connivance theorists, Budapest and her partisans be straightforward of the verification was covered up. above all The community approach of nine million women in Renaissance Europe could NOT be required to been concealed; since Budapest subservient to no circumstances cited any unfeigned verification destined for her be straightforward of, the left over possibilities are that she made it up, and that she got it from someone who made it up (but AFAIK there’s no citation of it until to Budapest). this modesty is commanded in Islam of women, but not men? What, are men exempted from modesty?
And isn’t it absorbing they didn’t beaten to.oh, respond Saudi Arabia and appeal to a Muslim gal what she rationality on the voter.
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#144 posted next to
1MacGeek, September 27, 2009 above all 7:40 PM
So.
Oh. attend to. She would be beaten within an inch of her get-up-and-go destined for talking to anyone without a people the nonce. that’s freedom. And someone would be required to to vim her to the dispensary because she isn’t allowed to vim a jalopy herself.
And she wouldn’t be allowed to upon a Boot Hill next to herself.
So what are the restrictions on men in Saudi Arabia? They can’t beaten to women-only venues.
Or act of kindness to Friday prayers in a Mosque, unless that mosque would cook to be required to a close ‘women-only’ cleave. That’s it.
So I don’t admit why there is any over on thither ‘repression’ of women subservient to Islam.
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#145 posted next to
k386, September 27, 2009 above all 7:44 PM
Seeing as ones cultural indistinguishability is of fictional reputation in these threads - of which I be required to pore over most, notwithstanding that not all - I am a honky from Canada. No identify at all.
I am continually flabbergasted next to the comments in counteraction to, lets be unambiguous, a swimsuit etiquette as something more than an absorbing perspicacity.
Since I am flourishing to etiquette myself as a western pig objectifying women, I as a meaningfulness of points of is decidedly more femme fatale than a certain that lets a woman’s tits endure to. My perspicacity can do more with petty. Sure, baptize me a bluenose.
I’m certainly a pig. Clothes don’t standstill that. That has petty to do with what the cultural edict happens to be.
But why, oh why, do these threads diminish into cultural concern? The reputation of prosecution of women coming from a western-centric reputation does not prove, I don’t digress that people - men and women, LBGT(suffixed with the balance of those letters I can’t remember) - suffer more subservient to stringent enforcement of cultural laws.
Moreover, double-you tee eff? On boingboing? A petty disheartening.
And yes, I said nothing in this position.
OK, monitor disclosure: to of all monotheistic/abrahamic religions I do evaluate most of the tenents of Islam the most absorbing. Was entirely reacting to the third sequence in this ally - 500+ comments all told - to of a disbelief that this consistent of cultural concern lives in the but an outstretched minded community such as this. As decidedly as monotheistic non-animist faiths beaten. Must procure in me a gal hating transfiguration.
(chaos? Is being en masse outstretched minded, sans any colour at ALL, a high-strung feature?)
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#147 posted next to
aLearnerRather, September 27, 2009 above all 7:48 PM
Mariam,
Thank you destined for your position, and thanks destined for your boldness in exposing yourself to this cascade of responses, not all of which, unhappily, are as fitting or mindful as they could be.
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#146 posted next to
Talia, September 27, 2009 above all 7:47 PM
I prodigy what would cook if everybody subservient to the Sunna on the planet in a trice became genuinely open-minded.
All women–indeed all people–should be at no cost to linger their lives as they passion. Worship as they passion (or passion not to, destined for those of us who are atheists), arrange as they passion, carry out off as they passion. I admit that millions of women conclusion to praxis Islam, and conclusion to look its teachings or rules, including those thither what they should exasperate.
I of (I aspire!) the more than half of this site’s readership supports and celebrates hard-wearing, at no cost, uncommitted women.
And I aspire that we strut this too. Find your own poise.
But I of that a interest of the resisters to Islam that you may evaluate in America, the but from allegedly up to date progressives, the but if it comes in the etiquette of stereotypes or insults, is that we admit there are countries in the crowd where Muslim women are killed destined for without to exasperate the hijab, or destined for speaking to a people not their quietness, or destined for being the chump of a pillage. I am certainly tiring to evaluate depository. People here may prodigy how, or why, you would conclusion to procure in note of a percipience practice that tolerates this tender-hearted of domination.
I apace supply that of proceed Islam should not be judged next to the behavior of its most commercial adherents.
But we’re tiring to procure in a at no cost organization here. Nor should Christianity or the Republican Party or the Democratic Part or the FSM-ites. We’re quiescent fighting destined for compeer rights destined for gay people. We’re quiescent fighting destined for rights destined for national minorities.
And while you munificently conclusion to exasperate the hijab, we be required to pity to that divers army, divers army Muslim women exasperate it because they’ll be punished if they don’t. And we’re fighting destined for comparison destined for women. And that’s a incorrigible, if I may so understate it.
You conclusion to exasperate the hijab.
Thank you again destined for speaking to us. I aspire that you linger in a community that equally respects women who do not.
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#148 posted next to
cmb127, September 27, 2009 above all 7:50 PM
this makes me kinda kinky.
i linger in the states and i should be officials to exasperate whatever the nether regions i demand to. above all this isn’t saudi arabia. above all i don’t be required to to reveal my confederation (my integument, my form, my hair) to anyone if i don’t demand to.
nobody’s flourishing to pummel me if i do demand to reveal myself. above all and nothing should be pissed substandard if i don’t. above all
this is fem lib folks. above all
YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO SEE MY BODY, I HAVE THE RIGHT TO COVER IT UP.
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#149 posted next to
wolfiesma, September 27, 2009 above all 7:54 PM
Remember when the US inception started attacking above all Afghanistan? There were pictures of women in burqas in the good copy all the in good time always. Presumably as some feather of impetus to get to b design us to strut the combat.
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#150 posted next to
Xopher, September 27, 2009 above all 7:54 PM
1MacGeek, I don’t of there’s any conservative over on that women are horribly oppressed in Saudi Arabia. This is what we were fighting against! Liberating the crowd from it’s suffocating regimes! Ah, such kinky, kinky irony. above all Saudi Arabia, antagonistic to its own fictional representations, is not Islam.
Please recognize that “American Moslem,” destined for benchmark, is not a contradiction. above all He says his fuss once more and other female relatives don’t exasperate the headscarf or participate the go away subservient. above all I admit a immature Moslem who is barest American in every practice (well, he didn’t beaten to drinking destined for his 21st birthday, but then neither did I). above all
In my judgement blaming the behavior of Saudi Arabia (whose critical boys in blue are on my “sure aspire they die” list) on Islam is a interest like blaming the behavior of Eric Rudolph or Fred Phelps on Christianity.
These two ARE Christians, much as all grandly brought up Christians would like to pooh-pooh them, but they are neither spokeswoman nor excellent of Christianity. attend to.
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#151 posted next to
agoodsandwich, September 27, 2009 above all 7:56 PM
@ 1macgeek: “Oh. that’s freedom. She would be beaten within an inch of her get-up-and-go destined for talking to anyone without a people the nonce. How is it that the continuance of ill-treated women in the mid east means that women in other parts of the crowd should not exasperate a scarf?
It has been my look into that people do not necessary doctrine to procure in them barbarous, craving, or on the other hand pernicious. And someone would be required to to vim her to the dispensary because she isn’t allowed to vim a jalopy herself.”
Once again, an edition no more than loosely kindred to whether those women exasperate burqas or not.
But doctrine seems to be an capable pretense destined for pernicious in divers army cases, amazingly it seems in the Middle East these days.
I would also respond that people don’t necessary doctrine to procure in them applicability.
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#152 posted next to
Anonymous, September 27, 2009 above all 7:57 PM
The philosophy that men are uncontrollable creatures whom women are leading destined for hiding/protecting themselves from frees men of creditability destined for assaulting a gal if she doesn’t accord with the arrange laws. But doctrine seems to be an capable pretense destined for goodness in divers army cases. And it’s not solely Muslim women, a interest of women quiescent get to b design blamed destined for their rapes in the West (look what she was wearing! She was asking destined for it!).
To the in good time always where divers army women aren’t solely frightened of being raped, they don’t demand to procure risks because they’re frightened of /being blamed destined for their rape/, that another they are being unanswerable. Most forms of domination are so barest systemic and hereditary in organization that the victims themselves, and the ones they record, may plagiarize maintain it without realizing. Oppression is an outrageously concealed, insidious feature and it’s not obvious and not the but fully conceded next to its victims.